So Sorry, So Sad

How would one describe the true Christian believer?

Faithful? Dedicated? Devoted? Confident? Hopeful?

How about arrogant?

It’s not always obvious, because the outward expression of faith, person to person, usually follows a typical pattern of expected behavior. Like the winsome priest going from room to room at the hospital, they often take on an air of humility and winsomeness. I know online behavior can be a lot more… extreme, but that’s probably true in nearly every category, not just when dealing with religion.

Yet if you peel back what is said, there is an arrogance that follows the True Believer.

I don’t always see it or notice it myself, but it was sort of laid bare in a couple of comments to my About WINLB page.

First a commenter said, “I’m so sorry.”

That’s it. That’s the entire comment. So I answered, “For…?” But I don’t need her to come back and tell me. I already know. She’s sorry that I no longer believe. If she was to say it herself, she’d probably be sorry I “lost my faith,” as though that loss is a subtraction from my otherwise whole self and something to be somehow regained.

The next commenter, apparently an Anglican Priest, said, “Sad!” then went on about gentiles and the covenant. It was rather unclear to me, so I asked him to clarify. His answer?

Of course I am responding to your so-called “deconversion”! Again, very sad! Note the great Parable of the Sower, (St. Mark 4: 1-20 … of course noting too, Matt. 13: 1-15 / Luke 8: 4-10). See also, Matt. 7: 13-23, etc. “I never knew you!” As it quite appears, you sir have NEVER known Jesus the Christ!

Insert heavy sigh here.

Both of these comments, the concise and the wordy, are loaded with the arrogance of those who think they know what cannot actually be known or demonstrated to be true.

The problem with the True Believer is that they don’t recognize that their worldview, their religion, is a belief they chose (or with which they were indoctrinated in youth) among a world full of different religions and ideas about the world. They don’t actually know, but the nature of their religious belief, and its underlying theology, pretends that their belief is tantamount to knowledge, and that their emotional experience is tantamount to true communion with the god of the universe.

Exacerbating this with all faiths is the insularity of churches, of most religious organizations. You feed at the same trough every week, and you only get that viewpoint, until it seems like the only truth out there because you haven’t bothered to actually check out any other ideas.

This fosters a rank arrogance among Christians that somehow they are the chosen, the elite who have been given Truth, and from that are therefore qualified to view others who do not share in or believe that same Truth as deficient, as lacking in some way.

I’m sorry? No, dear, I’m sorry that you somehow think that I’ve actually lost something. I’m sorry that your view is so narrow that you can’t see that I’m actually a whole person who has simply chosen a different path, one that rejects the self-hatred of Christianity.

How sad? Yes, how sad that in your arrogance you seem to think it’s your place to judge me somehow deficient and lacking. How sad that your belief, which is just one belief among many, and even that just a version among thousands, blinds you to the fact that you are no more a whole person than I am, with simply a different belief.

I was NEVER a Christian? Surely you’re read enough to know a No True Scotsman fallacy when you see it. Or when you type it out yourself. How arrogant of you to presume that somehow my 26 years of Fundamentalist Evangelical devotion to Christ was fraudulent just because the conclusion I have come to differs from yours.

How arrogant the believer has to be to presume his or her belief, his or her ideas, to be the only Truth in the entire universe. How arrogant these commenters to presume to judge me on the basis of their belief that, held under the light of reason, cannot stand up to the scrutiny of logic.

If they were truly humble, they would come as the equals they are, recognizing that their beliefs are but their ideas, and that whatever they believe, they might have something to learn for themselves while they presume to teach me.

But of course Christian belief doesn’t work that way. Assurance is necessary, even if it has to be manufactured emotionally, because hell awaits those who are not confident in their faith to profess Christ as Lord even in the potential face of persecution and death.

They’re taught that they better know for sure what they believe, and affirm that belief by receiving the free gift of god and undergoing the transformation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If you are taught that you have the actual Spirit of God living inside you, that has regenerated that part of you that connects to god, and if you get a warm fuzzy from it at some point, how can this Truth you’ve chosen to believe not be the actual only Truth?

And therefore the Arrogance of Knowledge is the only stance they can take without actually walking the road of reason that, for some, leads to liberation from religious delusion and enslavement.

I do admit to getting angry, but I was there once, so perhaps a little temperament on my part is in order.

But not so much that I won’t call it out when I see it.

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62 thoughts on “So Sorry, So Sad

  1. Anthony, I just discovered you blog and will be visiting it from time to time. My journey through Catholicism hasn’t been as blissful as your Christian experience. I always had questions even as a child. Initially, I wanted to escape because I wanted to stop fearing hell. I questioned my motives for a long time, thinking that if there was a heaven and hell, deciding to dis-believe was pure self-interest, and really wouldn’t help me in the end. In other words, no matter what I was able to convince myself, when I did die, I’d still be facing hell. I’ve reached a place where the fallacies of religion are so crystal clear that I no longer doubt my motives. At the same time, I have tremendous respect for people who do believe and who use those beliefs to make their lives and the world a better place. I miss that aspect sometimes.

    • I can relate to what you’ve shared. While I’m no longer a believer, I still think about the truly kind people who still are and who have made the world a better place. I believe, however, that many if not most of those people are those who have a kind heart and possess empathy, and that would be true regardless of their faith. I contend that ‘nice people are nice’ and ‘assholes are assholes’ and religion usually makes the assholes worse.

      • That’s exactly what I think too. Religion is a magnifier, an intensifier. It brings out the worst of the worst and sometimes the best of the best too.

    • Hi, Eliska! Thanks 🙂 I too respect such people, but I also believe that such people would still be making the world a better place because that’s the sort of people they are.

      • Not necessarily. I know many people whose behaviors and attitudes were changed because of what they learned as part of organized religion or other spiritual paths. I am one of them. I don’t think it’s necessary to totally discount the value of religion in order to validate my current beliefs. That would put me in the same boat as the faith I left.

      • I hear you, but still disagree, for a couple reasons.

        One, as I said elsewhere in this thread, I think religion is an amplifier. It’s truth serum for the inner person. I think it’s who the person *is* that determines how they respond. If there was no such thing as religion, that persons own emotional journey would, I think, lead eventually to the same place.

        Two, I believe all religions, while most have pieces of truth to them, are, in the end, a false representation of the actual nature of the universe. Having a false view of reality does more harm than good to the individual and to society. I think it is never better to do good for false reasons than for true ones. That is in a general, global sense, of course. While some individual outcomes may seem better, the global impact is, I think, negative.

        Thanks again for your viewpoint 🙂

  2. Indeed the Parable of the Sower surely bears out both the biblical and theological revelation that only the “Elect” or chosen Christian is the one “soil” that produces true regeneration and life as ‘In Christ’! (St. Mark 4: 8) This is the true and spiritual essence of that “Sown Word”, from HIM Who is always both the “Logos” and the “Rhema”, the Eternal and Living Word of God, Jesus-Yeshua, the Christ/Messiah… The masculine name of Jehovah-Yahweh, and God-Incarnate!

    • And yes, I am surely something of a so-called “Calvinist”, though as the American John Frame (and others), a “neo-Calvinist”! Indeed the Lordship of “Christ Jesus” is everything! – Jesus is Lord over all of creation. Jesus’ Lordship extends through every area and aspect of life – it is not restricted to the sphere of church or of personal piety!

      • And btw too, my statements are not really a personal ad hom here at all, as something I hope as a wee ad hoc, again biblically and theologically to the subject of those who, as the Parable of the Sower, are NOT truly regenerate In Christ! But indeed in the “end”, only the Lord Jesus will make this complete and final judgment! Lord have mercy!

      • Toon: YOU sir were the one who came over to my blog and took this idea to use, not I! And again, my arguments are biblical & theological, but then you have already rejected the presupposition and authority of Holy Scripture! MY point IS exegetical and interpretive, and here you are quite unable, simple! So the case is closed from any Biblical perspective, and you are now on the ground and place of an apostate and a full-blown unbeliever! Btw, I see this kind of “religious” like route with many so-called atheists today, quite amazing really.. and proves my point that fallen and sinful man/humanity MUST worship something, if not the true God, then “themselves”!

        Btw too, St. Paul’s Letter of Romans and chapter one, is a hammer blow here, especially verses 18 thru 25, etc. And note too how Saul-Paul says he is a “debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.” (Verse 14)

        I hope some of the open-minded readers here might read and study the great Revelation of the ‘Parable of the Sower’, seen in the Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 13: 1-15 / Luke 8: 4-10 ; 11-15 / Mark 4: 1-20. And theologically, as I have said the “regeneration” (life) comes alone to God’s chosen Elect, who have been given that “good ground” and heart, and believe unto eternal life! Again, St. Paul calls such “the gift of God”… and “created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained/prepared that we (the elect believer) should walk in them.” (Eph. 2: 8 ; 10)

      • Btw Toon, just a point, but my Father (RIP), an Irish Brit, and WW II “Spit” pilot (he flew and raced as a hobby into his 60’s, and even just flew into his early 80’s, died at 88!)… Indeed what a generation and life experience! And btw, he was a scientist and physicist, and moderate Theist (Roman Catholic). He so loved old Einstein! (Though could be critical!)

        *Yes, I was raised Irish Roman Catholic in Dublin, 1950’s, etc. But left Catholicism in the 1970’s.

      • When did I come over to your blog? Somewhere between not and never? You came over here and laid down judgment on me and others, and have not once answered for your arrogance. Not that you’re under any obligation to do so, except that you’re in my house here, and if you’re going to cast aspersions, you better be prepared to back them up.

        Now I offer you the chance to try once again.

      • YOU sir are in my search engine for my blog, for both May 16th and 17th…(winlb.wordpress.com). So don’t lie!

        And for an atheist now, why do you try to seek to debate biblically? It is quite obvious who have not read or grappled with Paul, especially his Letter to the Romans! And you have certainly not read Luther or Calvin, theologically! You again just prove your own supposition, that your so-called past Christianity was nothing but “fundamentalist” and shallow! We all must admit that path historically is surely nothing short of problematic to say the least!

      • Don’t lie? I clicked on your damn name because you came here and littered my blog with your nonsense. That’s why it showed up in your search engine. I didn’t seek you out. Now stop with the dishonesty.

      • **And for an atheist now, why do you try to seek to debate biblically?**

        You can’t really be asking that question, can you? Can you? How obtuse can you be?

        1 – The entire blog is about my exit from Christianity. Since the bible is accepted by Christians as they primary source of revelation from god, the bible is going to be front and center in the discussion much of the time. That should be obvious to anyone.

        2 – You insisted that I address bible verses you posted, meaning you wanted to have a biblical discussion, then when I do, you wonder why? What are you smoking?

        **It is quite obvious who have not read or grappled with Paul, especially his Letter to the Romans!**

        It is difficult to express just how angry this arrogant and ignorant statement makes me. It is not at all obvious, and in fact the passage in Romans 5-8 was the most worn out section of my bible as I struggled and wrestled for years with just that. It is only obvious that your narrow-minded, arrogant point of view prevents you from carrying on a decent conversation with those who don’t agree with you, and prevents you from being able to engage with other human beings on a reasonable basis.

        Your arrogant, judgmental behavior is disgusting, sorry to say.

        **And you have certainly not read Luther or Calvin, theologically! You again just prove your own supposition, that your so-called past Christianity was nothing but “fundamentalist” and shallow! We all must admit that path historically is surely nothing short of problematic to say the least!**

        LOL – Oh, I see, not only are you a Christian, but you’re the only right kind of Christian, and all the others are wrong.

        Your arrogance knows no bounds. Thank you for illustrating precisely the kind of self-righteous behavior I was writing against in this post. You couldn’t be a better model of some of the worst aspects of religious belief.

      • Toon: YOU were the one that used the idea of the “No True Scotsman” from off my blog!

        And all you do is attack me with adominem and prejudice! You cannot put a cogent theological piece together, so there is really no sense for you and I to try to really dialogue! You are an atheist, simple, and now have no right to the use of the Bible! Note, the man who said to Jesus, “Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief.” (Mk. 9: 24) THIS is the only true approach before the Lord and His Word!

        And so far “secretsally70” has been the only one to try to dialogue with me here! And you delete my statements to her? That’s simply cowardly to me! On my own blog, I always let people debate and dialogue, on their own with each other, if it is done with respect!

        Sadly, it seems your just a “punk” with atheism and unbelief, and does not want to hear any real other Christian thinking and theology! If this is my last statement here? I would point other minds towards one of John Frame’s latest books: Systematic Theology, An Introduction To Christian Belief, (P&R,2013 1219 pages).

        Sincerely In Christ,

        Rev. Fr. Robert K. Darby

      • **Toon: YOU were the one that used the idea of the “No True Scotsman” from off my blog!**

        You have got to be joking. I didn’t get that from your blog. I’m well acquainted with the range of logical fallacies and specifically pointed out your indulgence in the No True Scotsman fallacy. I couldn’t locate that idea on your blog if I wanted to waste my time wading through your disjointed posts (which I tried to do last night – great soporific, btw, thansk.)

        **And all you do is attack me with adominem and prejudice!**

        Quite incorrect. I have laid a number of theological and biblical conundrums at your feet, all of which you have patently ignored and instead indulged your penchant for insulting personal assumptions and attacks against my character without a shred of decency nor any attempt to even address the content of the article to which this thread is attached.

        **You cannot put a cogent theological piece together, so there is really no sense for you and I to try to really dialogue!**

        That would mean something if you had the wherewithal to cogently address anything I’ve written in the article above, other articles, or in this comment thread. You have not, and the assumption that you cannot is becoming safer by the moment.

        **You are an atheist, simple, and now have no right to the use of the Bible!**

        Says the guy who bitched when I didn’t use the bible. What a specious comment. I have every right to use the bible, every right in the world. After all, you and yours try desperately to use it to control the lives of others who would otherwise not trust it as a source of morality (considering its morality is pretty rank) nor otherwise adhere to its tenets or the tenets claimed by the likes of you.

        **Note, the man who said to Jesus, “Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief.” (Mk. 9: 24) THIS is the only true approach before the Lord and His Word!**

        I did, and amazingly, he didn’t answer, because even if he once lived, he’s dead and has been for a couple millennia now. Get over it.

        **And so far “secretsally70″ has been the only one to try to dialogue with me here! And you delete my statements to her? That’s simply cowardly to me! On my own blog, I always let people debate and dialogue, on their own with each other, if it is done with respect!**

        I deleted your statement when you began talking past me and past the content of this article to others as though this is your forum. It is not. You are my guest, and a boorish and dishonest one at that. Shameful, really.

        When you actually address the biblical issues I raised, and if you do so with at least some level of candor, you’ll begin to earn my respect. So far you only serve to reinforce my thoughts about deluded believers and their general inhibition against rational dialogue. So congrats on that, I guess.

        **Sadly, it seems your just a “punk” with atheism and unbelief,**

        Says the guy who decries ad hominems? Perfect example of one, TYVM. Shall we add hypocrite to your CV? If the shoe fits.

        **and does not want to hear any real other Christian thinking and theology! If this is my last statement here? I would point other minds towards one of John Frame’s latest books: Systematic Theology, An Introduction To Christian Belief, (P&R,2013 1219 pages).**

        I’d love to hear some. Bring it on. Just stop expecting me to kiss your ass and take your nonsense at face value. I’ve taken your spurious assertions head on, while you’ve dodged the argument wholesale.

        Find some courage and address the argument. Put up or shut up.

        **Sincerely In Christ,**

        Oh, that’s rich. Insulting spewage Christened by feigned spirituality.

        Let me know when you screw up the courage to actually address an argument. I’m right here.

    • Congratulations. You have missed the point by a greater distance than anyone in history.

      Here I’ll quote my response to this same nonsense you state on my “About” page:

      “The scripture you quoted is irrelevant as to whether you have any position with which to judge me when you do so by a standard I have rejected in totality.

      The standard of the parable of the sower is basically a control device to frighten the faithful into avoiding reasonable examination of their faith. It’s a way to bolster the idea that they’re elite, special, set apart. Not only that, but they passed a test, proving that they’re special.

      The fact of the matter is that your religion is but an idea, an idea that wholly reasonable people have a right to accept or reject, and if they wish, do so interchangeably. But such stories create a division in order to control and prevent any but those who insist on pursuing the question despite such fear-mongering stories.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say again – If I was not a true Christian, then you are not and never will be. Period. Knowing how this happened in hindsight repudiates the regeneration nonsense that Christians cling to in the fantasy that they are truly elite and chosen.

      But if you’re going to continue to make such statements, I think it would behoove you to actually read through most of the 30+ articles on this blog to gain a better understanding of what I’m trying to say, having already addressed the same old saws you proffer.”

  3. When I was exploring Christianity, after discussing some doubts I had, a member of the congregation of the church I was attending mentioned he would pray for me. I responded that I would keep him in my thoughts as well. I think that caught him off-guard!

    • We can be cool, and there’s no reason to. Some will be, but some will insist on judging and treating you like you’re broken, like they’ve got the secret and you’ve missed it. *sigh*

      Thanks for visiting and commenting 🙂

  4. If the calvinist doctrine is true, why in hell are we even here in this dog and pony show? When I was a born again Christian, I did believe that everyone could be saved… Every person had that gift of salvation offered to them to accept or reject.
    If God created jars that were only made for destruction, why make them at all?? (Romans 9:21) Just seems less painful in the long run to only create the elect.

    • GOD is Sovereign, and can do as HE pleases, but this is always pressed in God’s own mystery itself! God is not obligated to man at all, for man, as in “Adam” (the Federal Head) is fully imputed, and ascribed in and to sin! (Romans 5 ; 7: 13-15)

      • I have six children. I grew them in my body, fed them from my body…. Well… Only 2 of them… The others I created to die. No matter what those other 4 did, I had to no plan to feed them… I knew as they grew in my body, I would let them die after they were born . Since I created them, they are mine to do with as I please….its the mystery of a woman.
        See how horrible that sounds??!! What would we think of a mother that did that, but we are to worship and praise a god that does?
        BTW, I fed all of my babies. They are strong and healthy children and young adults. I love them so much that I would give my life to ALL of them. Figured I better tell people I did feed all of my babies as I’m sure someone will not get the point I was trying to make.

      • “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?” (Num. 23: 19, ESV)

        You are arguing against the great doctrine and “musterion” (Gk.) of GOD Himself! Note, Romans 11: 33-36. All human arguments and debates with God end before Him! (Job 38)

      • **GOD is Sovereign, and can do as HE pleases, but this is always pressed in God’s own mystery itself! God is not obligated to man at all, for man, as in “Adam” (the Federal Head) is fully imputed, and ascribed in and to sin! (Romans 5 ; 7: 13-15)**

        Translation: God is hypocritical prick.

        In reality, this is complete nonsense, because it means that god in his very nature is a contradiction of himself in several ways:

        1: If god is good, and only good, then by his nature he *must* seek only good for his creation, including every person born. To then willfully create a person destined only for destruction, whose only purpose is to live on earth then spend an eternity in torment with no recourse is evil. It is not *above* any of our minds. It is easy to see (you can repeat the verse all you want, it’s still an easily understood evil act.) Being evil, it goes against his stated perfectly good nature. Either god is not truly good as the bible states, or god as defined in the bible does not exist.

        2: Supposedly god is all about our free will, and that based on our free will, we all have total freedom to accept or reject god. Yet is god creates even one person who is created in such a way that god purposes him or her for destruction, he has in fact circumvented that person’s free will because that person was not designed in a way that gave them total freedom to choose, rather was designed to be destined for destruction from the beginning. Therefore either we don’t have free will and god cannot blame us for our wrongs because he designed us for his own purpose, or the theology of free will is nonsense and again, god as defined in the bible and by Christian theology does not actually exist.

        3: According to 2 Peter 3:9, god is apparently not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Yet how can he be willing that all would be saved when it was by his will that he purposed some to be destined for destruction, never intending them to be saved. That is a blatant contradiction. Further, if he is willing that all should be saved, and nothing can circumvent his will, then all should be saved. The fact that according to the bible, many will not be saved, means that his will is not carried out, meaning he’s not actually omnipotent. After all, even if we take into account free will (which we already know from this interaction does not exist in god’s economy) since god is all-powerful, he would be able to convince each and every person in the world to be saved without circumventing that person’s free will, because he’s all powerful, and nothing is too difficult for him.

        Basically, this entire line of reasoning you proffer is completely nonsensical and simply more proof that Christianity is not a valid belief system that reflects reality, rather just another mythological hodge-podge that doesn’t stand up to any reasonable scrutiny.

      • Btw, just a note, but I am usually in the A.M. writing form my lap-top at the hospital, where I still do some hospital chaplain duties, though I am semi-retired. So forgive any spelling errors, etc. I am sort of up and down, and on the fly!

        As concerns 2 Peter 3: 9, literally read’s “but is patient toward you (or as other MSS, is “on your account”. God’s patience and faithfulness is towards HIS “Elect”, i.e. chosen, so He surely does not want any of them to perish, but to come to repentance! Which surely only the “elect” can do, or fully respond to! Note also, 2 Cor. 7: 9-10.

        *Note also, the Death of Christ is “sufficient” for all, but only “efficient” or efficacious for the Elect! As we see in John 3: 16, it is “everyone who believes” that is effected by God’s grace!

      • I would challenge your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9, and in fact your interpretation is no more valid than other interpretations that assert just as validly that Peter is speaking of All (literally) and not just the elect.

        In fact, that the author is speaking of god’s patience, using the example that god wishes ALL people to come to repentance, illustrating the depth of that patience.

        So, no, you don’t have any special explanation that circumvents the contradiction. You only further the claim that your viewpoint is extremely arrogant and elitist.

      • Let’s also note that you completely failed to address my first two points, valid in and of themselves, regardless of where our conversation on 2 Peter 3:9 leads.

        There’s a lot you refuse to answer.

      • I have “refused” nothing sir, but I will NOT be pounded with Ad Hominem! – Personal statements against the man …attacking one’s opponent rather than debating the issue! This is the attitude of a “punk” in my generation, and surely you are younger than I! Yes, I am an old military man, and one should respect their elders!

      • *Punk*

        Dear sir, your hypocrisy is showing. You attack the man with such words without addressing the argument. You are what you decry. Sad.

      • Yes, I quite admit my being a retired Royal Marine, RMC (“Mustang”, enlisted to officer, that most important aspect of life experience again, which is always God’s Providence!) is hard for me with this “punk” generation, and especially the New Atheism!

        THIS will be my last!

      • This was and is certainly NO surrender mate! Just more Christ-like to let you go smartly off to hell and blazes! I can see as I said, you cannot do biblical or systematic theology! YOU have already chosen your fate, and this is without Jesus Christ!

        *Btw, if you do look at theology? Note, I am an Infralapsarian Calvinist: the theological position that God’s decree to save “follows” logically (not temporarily) the decision to create and permit the fall. And most Reformed Creeds are Infralapsarian, though the Westminster allows the Supralapsarian, yet follows the Infra.

      • **This was and is certainly NO surrender mate! Just more Christ-like to let you go smartly off to hell and blazes! I can see as I said, you cannot do biblical or systematic theology! YOU have already chosen your fate, and this is without Jesus Christ!**

        Empty words. You showed up here on my blog to cast judgments and aspersions about. I challenged your base assumptions and dishonest assertions. You whined that I didn’t debate using the bible. I did so, You wailed that I had not right to do so. You failed to address the arguments presented, resorting to ad hominems, then cried about ad hom attacks when I characterized your behavior as boorish and cowardly as it is, then you ran away.

        Yeah, that looks like surrender to me. Nobody believes you when you run away waving a white flag while declaring victory.

        So, once again, I want you to know that it’s okay that you surrendered without a real fight. When you rely on the bible to underwrite your rational dialogue, you’re basically bringing an exploding cigar to a gunfight, then lighting it in your own gob.

        Running away was probably the better option.

      • Isn’t amusing how we Yanks just expect Brits to have a little more class.

        Sad to be so disappointed.

        Thank goodness I know Brits who do or I suspect we’d have to bomb them next.

      • I’m moderating. Right now you’re allowed to discuss when you’re going to be adult enough to apologize for your boorish behavior.

        You should be able to carry on a discussion like an adult, and should be able to disagree without being insulting and rude.

        If you can’t hack that, then you’re welcome to piss off.

        Otherwise I’ll welcome your apology and we can resume the conversation.

  5. 1 John 2:2 ” And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.“ I’m going add a side note….” Well not the world world, the elect world” and of course the elect knows what He means.

    I know quite a few calvinists , what I find interesting, they all believe that their children are God’s elect. Can u imagine the heart break of raising your children in a God fearing home. Homeschooling them, praying for their souls, and none of it means anything because God did not choose your children, they were created to burn in hell for eternity. Why risk having any children if God may not choose any or all of them?

    This has been a huge stumbling block for me. There are amazingly God fearing Christians that are 4 or 5 point TULIP or free will Christians… And they can point out scripture in the God inspired Bible to back their beliefs…. If they all have the Holy Spirit inside of them, how are they not on the same page on predestination? I would think God would be like, “hold on one minute people, this group here, yall are wrong!! And BTW, I do not require any of you to hold rattle snakes to show you love me, and please give John his radiation to cure his cancer. I gave doctors the ability to research new treatments for diseases… Please use them. Peace out”

  6. So sorry Toon you are dealing with a Calvinist who just likes to talk about himself and spout his knowledge. If you have left the faith you never were a Christian in the first place!

  7. Father Robert time I go home and spout your evil God information to those who agree with you that god chose those who would believe and those who wouldn’t before they were born

  8. Pingback: So Sorry, So Sad Redux | Why I No Longer Believe

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